Trial Day 52 – April 24th, 2013 [REPLAY]

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Today’s 2013 Comedy Central replay rolls into Day 52 with rebuttal witness Robert Brown (Mesa PD)… and the direct/cross/redirect, juror questions & follow-ups featuring Kermit’s permanently confused & forever clueless best friend, Gloria Esteban.

Click the links to read my original posts & comments submitted from Trial Day 52:
Morning sessionAfternoon session.

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Trial Day 52 – April 24th, 2013:

Part 1/2:

Robert Brown (Mesa PD) – rebuttal witness – direct/cross
Esteban Flores – direct/cross/redirect

[hdplay id=200 width=500 height=300]

Part 2/2:

Esteban Flores – redirect cont’d + juror questions + defense follow-up

[hdplay id=201 width=500 height=300]

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Leave your thoughts and comments below…

Team Jodi

If you would like to help Jodi by way of a financial donation to the official JAA APPELLATE FUND, click the Team Jodi link below for further details. All donations go directly to the fund for assisting with the legal fees associated with appealing Jodi’s wrongful conviction. Thank you for your support!

We Are Team Jodi ---- And We Will Be Victorious!



  1. Justus,

    I haven’t had the time to thoroughly study your Wiki but I did scan it and I find it pretty awesome!!!!!! Great job, I am really impressed! And proud of you! 🙂 🙂

    Now, since you asked for some help here are a few things I’d suggest:

    1) On the Experts page, you should correct a misspelling. It’s DeMarte instead of DeMartes. And as whichtrial suggested, I think you should include Dr Robert Geffner’s name. Don’t forget to include Dr Jill Hayes’ name as well.

    2) On the Travis’ Documented History of Abusive Behavior page, instead of just mentioning that Travis called Jodi those terrible names, I think you should actually include ALL of Travis’ abusive text messages and e-mails. They can be found online as screenshots from the trial videos or you can re-watch ALV’s testimony. I can help too, if you want and try and find as much as I can. Reading the entire text and the oh so many abusive sentences will provide readers with a better context than just reading 3 ‘’scattered ‘’ words.

    3) On the Jodi the Stalker page, it is essential that you stress that bad-mouthing his ex girlfriends was a habit for Travis; you should mention the things he used to say about Deanna Reid to Jodi and how he had managed to portray Deanna as a crazy obsessed girl who just wouldn’t get over the fact they were over etc. Readers have to see there was a PATTERN of behavior with Travis, not isolated incidents.

    4) On the Judicial Injustices page and under Pickles’ name, maybe you can add the mind-blowing rate of Overruled Objections against the Defense. That shows bias against the Defendant, right? (echoing Martinez LOL) For example, a short video of or reference to the Snow White irrelevant fairytale and Wilmott’s many attempts to object to that will suffice 😉

    5) On the Judicial Injustices page and under the ‘’Jurors’’ section it might be quite powerful to write how there were jurors who admitted themselves that during the long delays they had their electronic devices to spend their time with (which means they may as well have been exposed to media coverage first hand and not necessarily through a third party eg family members). Also, a great example of the jurors’ bias was Juror 6, Diane Schwartz mouthing ‘’I’m sorry’’ to the Alexander family once they couldn’t agree on the sentence.

    6) On the Judicial Injustices page on Martinez’ section you can add one more bullet point, mentioning how he was allowed to include facts which were neither proven nor part of the trial’s evidence, meaning the mentioning during his Closing Arguments of Jodi committing the burglary at her grandparents’ house when she was NEVER charged with it. Thus, the whole gun theft theory was pure speculation and shouldn’t have been used against Jodi.

    7) On the Lifetime movie page, it might be useful to state how it was aired BEFORE the trial had ended, meaning before Jodi received her sentence thus possibly tainting the new Jury pool.

    8) I didn’t get the Circumstantial Evidence page (LOL, don’t be mad at me). What I mean is that I didn’t understand why you have DV facts in it instead of all the circumstantial evidence such as the gas cans, the hair dye, the switching off of the cell phone, the supposed jealousy due to the Cancun trip , the choice of a white instead of a red car, the upside licence plates and all the other absurdities Martinez used in order to convince the jury that this crime was premeditated.

    Finally, since this is a wikispaces site it might be best to make it appear more…objective and less emotional because we want people from both sides to come and visit. For instance, why not changing the ‘’Unreasonable (State’s) explanation’’ to just ‘’State’s explanation’’. And the ‘’Reasonable explanation’’ to just ‘’Defense’s explanation’’ ?

    Anyways, sorry for my babbling. I LOVE LOVE your work, I know it must have been time-consuming and pretty hard to gather all this information and put it so neatly and organized together.

    • Thank you, Maria. I will be going over your very thoughtful suggestions.

      Regarding the Circumstantial Evidence page, I meant it as circumstantial evidence in Jodi’s favor. So I will clarify that.

      Also, as to the use of Reasonable and Unreasonable, I am trying hard to drive home the concept of Reasonable Doubt and felt repetition was useful. However, I will take your suggestion under advisement.

      Again, thanks for your useful input.

    • Hi Justus,

      Perhaps there could be a heading for “Amnesia” [using the medical term – Journee, what exactly is that term again? Ischemic Amnesia, or is it Ischemic Transient Amnesia?]

      Perhaps include some examples and more scientific information about this condition.

      There are people who have extraordinary capacity for personal memory. Marilu Henner is one, and has, as I understand it, written a book about it. Many reporting on Jodi’s case assumed that having a good day-to-day memory would provide some sort of protection against traumatic memory loss. The two are completely different; having a good “working memory” doesn’t help a person if the memory was never formed in the first place.

      It’s like assuming that damage to the hard drive of a computer would be insignificant if it had a huge amount of RAM.

      • I have a TBI ,from a concussion, and PTSD. I thought I was watching myself while watching. Jodi. I would not have made a great witness because of the way ,my memory works. Jodi had a story to tell. Its her life ,and she wanted to defend herself. So, I admire her for that.
        However, with PTSD, and My TBI, I can’t think straight when I am being yelled at.
        It triggers fear, and stress isn’t something, I work well under.
        Usually when pressured about something I lost ,I react defense,and angry. After the initial reaction. I then cry.
        So ,I believe that JA has PTSD and she did Amazing Job considering.
        (((( and love to Jodi ))) Alot more survivors with PTSD and TBI*s are starting FB pages and are starting to explain what we feel on a day to day basis.

    • I clicked on your link ((Maria)) to that woman who was scheduled for execution. ..I heard about that case on the news so I also put her name (for an update) in a Google search: michelle byrom …. And, found out that on April 1, 2014, Mississippi death row inmate Michelle Byrom was ordered a new trial… … Let’s pray that Jodi Ann Arias will get her entire case thrown out before the judge’s selected penalty phase start date of Sept 8, 2014, (((which just so happens to be the Nativity [birthday] of the Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of Jesus Christ))). …Perhaps Jodi’s Guardian Angel (St Joan of Arc) whispered in the judge’s ear that (Sept 8, will be a good day to draw maximum attention of the trial) … yes, judge, that will be the beginning of Judgement Day, for the entire prosecution team, their political handlers, and their families. …in my humble opinion. …

  2. Since some people still seem to be confused (as I originally was) about the felony-murder charge (FM), here is the clearest explanation I can give. If you want to read a very useful further discussion, go to Vladimir Gagic’s blog:

    First: the Yreka burglary has *nothing* to do with the felony-murder charge. Zero. It is only relevant as evidence of premeditation, the other route to M1. It is true that the “predicate felony” for the felony-murder charge is burglary. But that is not the Yreka burglary, which was complete about a week before Travis’s death (not to mention 1000 miles away). Hence no one could possibly argue that his death was “in the commission of” that burglary.

    Rather, the predicate felony for the felony-murder charge is a burglary, specifically second-degree burglary, of *Travis’s* house. As you can read in the jury instructions, second-degree burglary, in AZ, occurs when someone unlawfully enters *or remains* in a residence for purposes of committing any theft or any felony therein. The “any theft or any felony therein,” i.e., the intended further offense, is called by one textbook the “ulterior offense” and by Gagic the “second predicate.” Let us call it X, for convenience. So Jodi’s alleged burglary, in this case, is her remaining after she was no longer a welcome guest, with intent to do X.

    JM never settled on one specific X. At one point in the trial, when Nurmi was trying to get the FM charge thrown out, JM said there were at least 3 possibilities. By his closing argument, he was still talking about 2: (aggravated) assault, and theft of TA’s gun. (I don’t know what the 3rd was supposed to be.) Gagic (link above) has a really good argument for why X should not be allowed to be assault. Nurmi made at least a similar argument, but Stephens didn’t buy it.

    It seems absurd, and a serious due-process violation, that the state was not required to pick an X and stick to it. I read an 8th-Circuit opinion, Forgy v. Norris, 64 F.3d 399, as making this a constitutional requirement. I haven’t heard of Nurmi making this argument, but maybe he did and Stephens just didn’t buy it.

    It’s impossible to be sure what “X” the 7 voters who voted for FM had in mind. I came up with a cute argument that it wasn’t assault: if the jury considered that possibility, it should have been unanimous on the FM charge, since premeditated murder implies premeditated assault automatically. And in the latest version of my summary of trial defects, I use that as the first step in a 2-step argument to throw out those 7 votes altogether.

    Therefore, perhaps those 7 were thinking of X as theft of TA’s gun. But that is of course absurd, as Nurmi said, since no one on earth believes that Jodi killed TA with the *objective* of stealing his gun, as is required for FM. Whatever she killed him for, it obviously wasn’t to get a crappy gun. But JM conveniently omitted that element (the “intent” to steal his gun) in his closing, implying that death + gun theft = felony murder. Nurmi objected that JM was misstating the law, but Stephens overruled — a very clear error, in my opinion.

    Because of this misstatement alone, I’d expect it to be fairly easy to get the FM votes thrown out on appeal. Unfortunately, that still leaves 12 for premeditation, and I don’t have high hopes that my own little argument would succeed on appeal. I imagine that the witness-intimidation and prosecutorial-misconduct grounds are much stronger. But, in general, I don’t have a clear idea of Jodi’s chances on appeal.

    This is the clearest explanation of FM that I can come up with. I hope it’s helpful.

      • OK, but you can’t say that in an a legal argument! Also, it would be useful to know *which* part of what he said was behind that vote.

          • I strongly suspect that the jurors who voted for FM were going with the “she remained in the house” line of thinking. They may have believed that she was not really invited in the first place in spite of sleeping there with him, and in spite of the photographs. I suppose they believe she had some intent to commit “grievous bodily harm” at the least, because they also voted for premeditated murder.

            And that’s why they are, as Gagic has said, conflicting charges.

            In deliberating, they would have known not to consider the Yreka gun theft in the FM charge, and probably didn’t believe TA had a gun. If they did believe that he had a gun, it was not likely that any of them thought that she only killed TA “in furtherance” of its theft. So they went with the circular reasoning with respect to being “unwelcome” in the house once the fight was underway.

            JM brought this charge to the judge, she signed off on it, and he gave it to them to consider. The seven obviously believed that there was justification for the charge and that the prongs COULD be met; they proceeded to conjure a conviction out of JM’s supposititious arguments. They had no proof that she was not invited, though.

            The FM will likely not stand.

            Just as JM has over-reached so did they. It’s “Follow the Leader”, with an obsequious referee.

            • They couldn’t have bought the gun theft intention, since they voted for premeditation too. It means they bought the whole scenario of Jodi stealing her grandparents’ gun days before and coming to Travis’ house already armed. So, to them Travis’ gun never really existed.

              So, yes obviously they went along the ”she was no longer a welcomed guest” theory which if my memory serves me right Martinez based on the fact that Jodi started attacking Travis and THEN she was no longer a welcomed guest. Not during the sexcapades and the photoshoot. Again, double standards just like the fact that Martinez argued BOTH that Jodi premeditated this weeks ago AND that the jury should not exclude the possibility of premeditation taking place minutes or even seconds before the actual attack.

              • Does anyone remember when someone stated on twitter that Travis had purchased a 25 caliber gun on his 21st birthday in California? I know I didn’t dream it but I can’t remember where the info came from. They had found the paper work. Anyone?

                • I remember but not on twitter. I saw a picture of a garage with ammo in it which was purported to be travis’. Do you remember during trial, when jodi was about to say travis owned a gun given to him by his father? She almost got the sentence out when Juan flew out of his chair and objected vehemently and then there was a sidebar? It wasnt mentioned again.

                • Thank you Maria but I believe I also saw it somewhere else too because I remember they said it was his 21st birthday. I just can’t think where, maybe it will come to me!

              • Yes, that’s why she was supposedly no longer welcome: she was stabbing him!

                On premed vs. gun theft FM, I don’t think they’re actually inconsistent. Some or all of the 7 jurors might have disbelieved Jodi as the Yreka burglar, but still found JM’s other evidence of premed convincing. And presumably a person can have two intentions, to kill someone *and* steal his gun. So, as I went back and forth with Amanda Chen about some time ago, I think the two votes are not logically inconsistent, however much I wish they were. Just stupid.

              • This was why JM insisted that she brought the knife with her, to cover the premeditation – no matter what might eventually be made of the gun’s ownership. The prosecution never conclusively acknowledged the butcher block as the source. (Trial Day Eight.)

                Of course, there were photographs in evidence of the butcher block and the dishwasher. Jodi would have known that the knives were there. She had plenty of time to go downstairs and get a knife, and according to the state’s charges against her, she had the motivation to do so.

                The state had to get the jury to believe there was no rope, and that the knife was not already in the room, a probable defensive weapon of opportunity; EF and JM dismissed the “tan, ropish fibers” without ever matching them to one particular household object to prove their origin, while arguing that the knife was a weapon she brought into the residence with murderous intent.

                Those “tan ropish fibers” (as EF initially described them on the phone interview with Jodi) are also a distinctive clue that TA knew she was to arrive. They were exactly what would come from a decorative rope. And the phone call between them not long before that last visit did record his fantasies about wanting to tie her.

                Removing the rope from the scenario therefore helped to take TA’s own knife out of the equation but it also bolstered the prosecution’s “trespassing” allegation, an essential component of the Felony Murder conviction.

                • Chris, to clarify, my 3:18pm response was to Maria.

                  With respect to conflicting charges:

                  Clearing to the side the supposititious arguments about gun thefts and what happened first or last, and whether or not there was a pause in the fight, imagine for a moment that no gun was involved, and that this killing only involved a knife. (Isn’t that what the prosecution has alleged, that the final shot was gratuitous?)

                  So the FM conviction, with its Burglary in the Second Degree requirement, would rest upon her being uninvited, and entering the premises with the intent to inflict “grievous bodily harm” – a felony, which caused the death.

                  The conflict lies in “intent” v.s. “premeditation”, and WHAT the “intent” or “premeditation” actually pertained to.

                  If, in committing second degree burglary, she “1)…entered or remained unlawfully in or on a residential structure, and
                  2) Did so with the intent to commit any theft or felony therein”,

                  …her intent would have been to commit that felony.

                  The jury instruction also reads:
                  “In the course of and in furtherance of committing Burglary in the Second Degree, or immediate flight from it, the defendant caused the death of any person.”

                  So, which is it? A premeditated murder or an intent to enter the house, or remain unlawfully in the house in furtherance of an assault (a felony)? If, in her immediate flight from the house the death was caused, it is the same question.

  3. About the shelves:

    I have a large bookcase with ‘flowing shelves’ that are placed on 4 tiny metallic bits (something like the closet shelves). The difference is that my shelves are double the length of the closet shelves, thus more books can be stored on then = to more weight added on the shelves. On one of the shelves I have a whole set of encyclopedia books on it (imagine the weight).

    Many times I needed to reach something from the top shelf, so I kinda used the first 2-3 shelves as a ladder. I am almost the same size and weight of Jodi. Those shelves not only held the books weight but mine too. So, don’t let those little metallic bits trick you! They can hold a hell of a lot of weight! The material of the shelves is like the kind of wood used in most of IKEA furniture (thick plywood). And yet, that too was strong enough to hold the weight…

    Shelf theory (not being able to hold Jodi’s weight) debunked.

    • Excellent point, Pandora! I hadn’t thought of that before – Flores performing his test on empty shelves vs shelves that had some weight to hold them still for the instant that Jodi boosted herself up.

      • Some shelves will hold up better as you step on the front edge when they have a good amount of weight on them. They won’t tip, and you won’t slip.

    • Yea ((Pandora)) I think the shelves can support a lot more weight than one would think. ..And, I think the prosecution snookered the jury by getting them to think that Jodi had to actually climb on the shelf with 100% of her total body weight 120 lbs. ..I say it absolutely did not have to happen that way. ..I say that she instinctively knew what to do by placing her right foot (on the shelf) just above that support peg (the strongest point) in the right vertical support frame. ..At that point almost zero weight was on the shelf. ..Her entire body weight shifting to her left foot & leg slightly bent, then thrusting herself up with left foot. ..About 25% of her weight (30 lbs) would probably shift to her right foot but she would be in dynamic motion straight upward propelled by her left foot. ..Her right hand would grab the upper right vertical frame for stability. ..And with her left hand extended to where she must have assumed the gun was last seen, she probably touched & grabbed the gun just as she reached the zenith (highest point of travel). ..She was instantly on her way down, & her right foot was also coming off the right side of the shelf (in my opinion). ..I say that at absolutely no time was more than 25% of her body weight (necessarily) pressing on ANY PART OF THE SHELF. ..You are correct, it could be done & I think that is a way it may have been done. ..I put this on another site about 6 months ago Sept, 2013. ..Please check it out through …..& please scroll down to where it says: …….((A PERRY MASON MOMENT BUSTED))…THE GUN RETRIEVED FROM THE SHELF BY JODI ARIAS??..YES IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE….in my opinion… God Bless Jodi & a little help from St Joan of Arc, her Guardian Angel………….. Jodi did not lie to the court…..

  4. For those who missed this yesterday:

    I’ve been working on a wikispaces site which I’ve titled “Jodi Arias: An Argument for Reasonable Doubt.” I am hoping you will all take a look at it and give me suggestions, corrections and/or feedback. I’m not yet ready to release it for full public consumption so please provide your comments here rather than commenting on the site itself. Thanks.

      • About the jury. To know what they could have been thinking, hmmm well,.I would have had to know more about them individually.
        We’re they romp stomping moroms?? Gun toting hillbillies?
        Since both counsel can reject certain numbers, I think I need to study up on jury selection process.
        I did find it odd in this case,that they kept losing jury members. ????

    • I think your wiki will be an important document of this trial, both for its research and how that research is laid out in such a concise and unvarnished way. Maybe you might want to go into a contrast between Jodi’s upbringing and Travis’. After all, we are formed a lot by our early years, which sets the fate sometimes for our destiny.

    • I changed the title of the Borderline Personality Disorder page to “BPD vs PTSD” and will be expanding that page. I also added this:

      “Why is it so easy for people to understand how someone who is trained to kill, can go off to war, kill perfect strangers and return with PTSD but find it so difficult to understand how someone, not trained to kill, who ends up killing someone they love, might also suffer from PTSD?”

      • Yes, exactly!
        I’d provide some tangible proof of that though, an example maybe, an article naming a particular person who has shared his/her story. Not just a general statement. Soldiers do come back from wars suffering from PTSD, police officers who happen to kill someone on duty do suffer from PTSD.

        This site for example is a great source of information on the subject and it raises awareness, it is full of stories of real people.

      • Justus, You’ve made this point before and it bears repeating.

        These initial thoughts come to mind: A person who kills a loved one in self-defense usually goes it alone. In war, the combat veteran returns mourning lost comrades and their wounds, and the wounds of others. Survivor guilt in the combat zone can be experienced over and over, and that anguish can produce PTSD, whether or not the soldier has taken a life. The soldier who has knowingly killed would be seen sympathetically has having killed in the course of duty. A homicide committed during intimate partner violence will always be second-guessed, because of the great many murders committed by spouses and partners, and because justifiable homicide could be viewed by many as something other than that – as having been an avoidable killing, “if only”… and because they were not “following orders”.

        Recording injuries in domestic violence, and notifying friends and family so that they can observe any injuries is crucial because someday, if the fight is to the death, the previous evidence might save your life yet again.

    • I want to add Det. Flores to the “Judicial Injustices” page but need help regarding calling his testimony perjury. With Dr. Horn there is no question but Flores just testified (as far as I know) that he must have misunderstood Horn. It’s obviously an assault on our senses but I don’t know if we can necessarily call that perjury. Can anyone give me more to go on?

      • I guess, instead of calling it out and out perjury, you could just point out the *judicial injustice* of allowing him to give conflicting sworn testimony.

        It’s in one of Nurmi’s motions for mistrial that Jodi’s defense fought to keep Flores testifying on Horn’s behalf at the Cronis hearing, insisting that he was not qualified to do so. But the judge allowed it, allowed Flores’ “misunderstanding” into the record and even cited it in her own decision in support of the state’s case… which AT THAT TIME insisted that the gunshot came first.

    • Impressive site you have, Justus, titled “Jodi Arias: An Argument For Reasonable Doubt.” ….I like the Theory 1, Step 1, where you say (about the gun): ….. “Perhaps he inherited one from his mother who died in 2005 and was known to have acted out of rage, emptying a gun into Travis’ father’s car.” …I feel it is so important to know more because this is the ((sentence)), I assume, that the prosecutor prevented Jodi from talking about in court, I think Trial Day 29. …An objection & then broke for lunch I believe. Prosecutor must know that it is important to bury that info. …But can there be someone who can be found, to say when this happened, (the Annie get your gun momma)? ..Could there be a time/date, police report, witnesses? ..Perhaps it was a .25 cal semi, & documented? …Who else would get his mom’s guns when she passed? …When someone shoots up a car it is usually documented. Remember OJ who took a baseball bat to Nicole’s car? ..Remember that golfer whose wife attacked his car with a golf club? ..Someone must know if Travis had a .25 cal semi auto. .. After all, the Colt Model 1908, .25 semi-auto was first invented & manufactured in 1908, by John Moses Browning, a Mormon & member of The Church of Latter Day Saints. ..Wouldn’t it be a real coincidence if he was accidently shot with antique Model 1908, built in 1908, by an ancestor Mormon?? …..I believe Jodi did not lie about Travis really did have a gun. …

      • Correction to above: …John Moses Browning, a Mormon & member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

  5. Posting from phone, just wanted to say Hi! We have not seen Spring yet uggg!! Love all the posts!!
    watching trial over again… Going to vent soon LOL
    TEAM((( JODI)))

  6. Good morning “cyber family” Happy Saturday! I’ve been kind of absent For the past week or so. Finally went back to work after being laid off all winter (since mid December). All I’ve had time for is check in after I get home, and read a few comments then it’s off to bed. So I haven’t posted much, but I’m here every day.
    (((((TEAM JODI)))))
    (((((CYBER FAMILY))))))
    ♥ ♥ ♥ 🙂

    Ray in H-burg Va.

    • Hi Ray! Glad your back to work! I’ve missed your posts but we all understand work comes first! Back to work and the time change is enough to do anyone in! Hang in there! 🙂

    • Jodi is the source for that. I figured that’s why you didn’t mention it. Naysayers will just argue that Jodi lies.

        • Yes, she testified under oath that Deanna was kinda crazy and clingy, wouldn’t let him go — I honestly don’t recall whether she used the word ‘stalker’ or not, but it was clear that Deanna had been described to Jodi as Jodi had been described to others.

          IMO, it was a ploy Travis used to facilitate his game as a player – a way to explain the ongoing presence of other women in his life to whatever girl he was with at the moment.


    We’ve already had 60+ reads on the site (the majority coming through this site so I’m wondering if some of the lurking opposition are reading it.). I removed the commenting sections, deciding we’ve already heard all the idiotic crap those people want to throw at us so I don’t want to muddy up the pages with nonsensical and distractive arguments.

    • We already know that we will never reach those hard core haters because their agenda is not justice, it’s hate. I’m hoping this will reach those people who just naively swallowed HLN’s crap hook, line and sinker. Maybe a chance to hear an argument from the other side will make them stop to think. Please pass the address on to any friends or relatives you think might benefit.

      • You are doing a wonderful job Justus! Hopefully people will begin to see the injustices that have happened in Jodi’s trial and actually start to think for themselves and not be swayed by networks such as HLN. IMO the comment section being removed is a fantastic idea. 🙂

        • Thanks, R, for all your support. Greatly appreciated. I’m still hoping when all is said and done, and Jodi walks out a free woman, we might all gather in Phoenix, have a celebratory party, and meet each other.

                • Getting Jodi there is the priority, she’ll be safer there. If we can go along for a party, fantastic!

                • Journee, I’ve heard that Debra Milke’s supporters bought her a house. Imagine that! I admire those people who stood by Debra’s side for 23 years…

                  I don’t see why us Jodi supporters can’t do a similar thing for Jodi. We can and we will wait till her day of freedom, and when that day comes we will buy her a ticket to Greece or any other country and get her the HECK out of AZ and the States in general!

            • When Jodi is freed we should ALL make sure she will NEVER EVER step foot in AZ again!

              I (OF COURSE) agree with Journee! She will come to Greece and everyone here is invited too! NO ONE knows her here, she can stay for as long as she wants 🙂 I don’t care how long it’s gonna take us to get Justice for our girl, I sure will wait!!! 😉

              • Amen Maria! Hopefully, we may all help get her out of Arizona and headed your way! I believe it is not only a dream but it will come to pass! FREE JODI ARIZONA!!!
                (((((((((JODI & Team JODI))))))))))) 🙂

    • Heythere Justice Forusall. I have been reading your wikispaces and learning from it so good job! However, with the whole stabbing in the shower. I have thought that the encounter would have caused Travis to not make it as far as he did, making his way to the bedroom. It was said that Jodi “stabbed” Travis in a frenzy. Now, lets just say that Jodi had Travis close his eyes and then stabbed him repeatedly, really fast. Also keep in mind that she could coordinate her first stab to his neck. Travis can’t stand up while an individual is throwing blow after blow with a knife down upon him, especially considering the flowing water in his face. The only choice Travis would have is to crawl out which would also make him vulnerable for stabbing. And if Travis was choking on blood as what the state thinks is indicated in the sink, then it would be difficult for Travis to sprint across the room, choking and being viciously attacked at the same time.

      • Hi Ryan, I’ not quite sure what you’re saying. That you think there is a chance she did start stabbing him in the shower? If he crawled out of the shower, over to the sink, why would he then be standing at the sink turning the faucet on and off? Why did he even go to the sink? There is obviously a pause in the fight while he’s at the sink. Please tell me further your thoughts. And thank you for your input.

        • I put quotations over stabbing when I used it in a sentence. However, according to what you said on wikispaces in regards to Travis being able to over power Jodi if she attacked him with a knife. I do believe that Jodi is physically capable of killing Travis with a knife in the shower, considering that the whole accusation was based on having Travis close his eyes and turn his head down I believe. However, if the blood in the sink was from Travis choking and coughing that up, then it would be hard to imagine that Travis would be able to sprint across the room. Its easier to imagine that the struggle would have been more sedentary if Jodi had stabbed Travis in the shower. I should have specifically pointed out what I was talking about in your wikispaces. I in no way believe that Travis made a pit stop at the sink if Jodi was attacking him in such a way. I recall reading that the way Travis had his hands placed on the sink indicated that he was not in the middle of a struggle at that very moment. looking forward to reading the rest of your wikispaces Justus Forusall!

          • Ryan, I strongly believe Travis’ siblings know he had a gun but, of course, they’re not saying a word since truth might interfere with their goal of revenge. Jodi also started to mention Travis’ father in regards to the gun but Martinez, also not interested in truth, objected and that was the end of it.

            • I totally agree with you that it would be very difficult for Jodi to DEPEND on being able to kill Travis with a knife Justice. The very first stab would really have to count and preferably take Travis’s oxygen away as adrenaline can potentially neutralize pain. Once Travis straightens his posture, then it would be much more difficult to coordinate stabs. I would be so freaked out that I could miss entirely or accidently cut him or stab somewhere else. Also what if Travis happens to look over to tell Jodi something while she is about to “stab” him. Being that Travis was a kick boxer and former wrestler, then there is a great chance that he has the reflexes to engage right away. Water flowing in your face could only damper your perception, but you can still see good enough to block, deflect, and grab a striking arm. Some people can see under water perfectly without using goggles. If Travis moves his head to the left or right, then he could at least mostly pull is head out of the water. If he simply turns his head without moving it side to side, then one eye is mostly out of range of the flowing water directly. The other eye would still be able to see better. I will research more about the gun. I did not know about Jodi saying that Travis’s dad gave him a gun.

            • Ryan, there is no proof that Travis closed his eyes, and/or that he was lulled to sleep in the shower before the fight began. The last close-up photo of his face shows that he was alert, even agitated.

              Additionally, It should have been demonstrated in court how a person could actually shoot well-framed photographs while holding a camera and a knife at the same time. JM, I believe, made reference to the strap being attached to the camera during the photo shoot, but, as we all know, no portion of a strap was ever seen in the frame of any of the shots that were taken automatically after the camera was dropped, even though the camera may have been kicked during the fight. The strap was later found in the camera bag, not in the washing machine, as testified to by one of the Mesa PD experts.

              There was no blood found on the shower walls.

              In reading your 10:29pm comment, it seems as if you are saying that a “stabbing first” which weakened him to the degree that he could not have fought back is a scenario that also would not have allowed TA to get down the hall, much less stand at a sink and work the faucets, but I’m still not entirely sure what point(s) you wished to make.

              It was incumbent upon the jurors to try to work out a logical scenario that would explain the whole scene – as you have obviously tried to do – but it appears that they were too exhausted by the hellish environment of that court and the prosecutor’s trickery and sleight of hand (introducing evidence against a backdrop of previously entered evidence, and droppping the same camera, examples, respectively) to have had an unencumbered capacity to do so. Seven jurors having voted for conflicting charges speaks for itself.

              Epic failure on the part of the judge, IMO. She did not provide intellectually fair proceedings for the defendant nor a decent moral environment for those jurors.

              • Ryan, your above post at 2:05pm explains your line of thinking more clearly (wasn’t there when I began my comment). I agree with your assessments about the water not being much of an impediment to clear sight, how a person could simply turn out of it or use another eye, and with what you say about the reflexes of a trained fighter.

                If this fight had been premeditated, Jodi would have been, as you say, “so freaked out” by the thought of attacking him that she either would have done it the moment she got there or after he was asleep. She was well aware of his fighting abilities, and knew he’d been working out since she’d last seen him.

                • I was implying that I consider that it is possible for Jodi to have killed Travis with a knife. Not likely, but it COULD happen.

              • I am aware that there was a lot of speculation based accusations whichtrial. However, if Travis was supposedly stabbed first, then he choked and coughed up blood at the sink. If he was choking that bad, then it is highly unlikely that Travis could have sprinted across the room. I was explaining that this accusation simply doesn’t seem reasonable.

                • Ryan, it is HIGHLY unlikely that in a stabbing scenario, he would have chosen to go to the sink in lieu of using whatever strength he had to defend himself and disarm the attacker.

                  The aspirated blood spatter/spray in the sink is not reflective of the cuts TA had. It IS consistent with the type of gunshot wound that was described in the autopsy report.

                  Also, I don’t recall anyone suggesting that TA’s moves involved any sprinting. It looks like a clinch, break way, clinch scenario.

                • Ryan, In response to your “it COULD happen” comment above: Yes, Jodi could have attacked TA with a knife straightway, killing him in his sleep. There are ways to “get the drop” on a person, even one much larger and more muscled and with quicker reflexes than you and more skilled in fighting – with just a knife, and thus get the mortal advantage.

                  There is massive reasonable doubt that a “knife first” scenario in this particular case did occur.

                • I used the word COULD instead of WOULD. It is only a possibility that Jodi could have stabbed Travis first. The reason I would think that he sprinted across the room is that there is no blood in between where the shot and the stabbing occurred.

              • That was the first I heard of no blood being found on the walls whichtrial. I imagine that forensics could trace that because forensic devices can trace even the smallest evidence of DNA. Good point!

                • “ blood in between where the shot and the stabbings occurred” – Ryan, what locations are you referring to with respect to which weapons?

                • Shot took place by the sink and then Travis ran down the hall. I don’t know if there was a turn down the hall, but I think there was based on the crime scene photos. I can not see much in the backround behind the carpet and it doesn’t look like there is anything back there besides the hall. I do see a trail of blood prior to the pools of blood whichtrial. However, if Travis broke away, then he had to have ran.

                • No, shot took place probably nearer the shower/bathtub AS Travis was tackling her and they both went down. He threatened to kill her, SHE got away and took off down the hall while HE stood at the sink trying to figure out why his nose and mouth had filled with blood. Then he went after her.

                • I found out that there was no turn around the hallway. However, I don’t believe that this was self-defense on Jodi’s part. It really seems as if Travis was killed in blood atonement by a Later-Day Saint individual or individuals. However, all I am trying to say is that I would imagine that Travis couldn’t have made it as far down the hallway as he did if he was choking on blood. Now there is a big difference when the blood is flowing from above your mouth and below your mouth. Travis goes to the sink and spits up blood and it looks like he could have also blown out both nostrils too. Perhaps the blood could still refill, but Travis could simply keep his head pointed somewhat down in order to be able to run and not choke at the same time.

                • Ryan, I agree that something else or something more happened. But the scene does seem to me to support a life or death struggle between two people (it just doesn’t explain to me how Travis got back in the shower, lol)

                  I’ve always thought that the first and fatal knife wound, that one deep chest wound, happened in the bedroom — that Travis was down on all fours after that wound and left that significant pool on the carpet. And I think that wound might have even been an accident, just because of the odd angle of it, as though the knife was being held up like a sword and he might have stumbled towards it. I mean, typically, a knife fighting novice wouldn’t be stabbing *upwards*, they’d be arcing the knife downwards, right?

                  I’ve always thought it VERY odd, though, remarkable even, that there seem to be two nearly perfectly straight lines of streaming, dripping blood – one down each side of that hallway. For the life of me I can’t find an explanation for that.

                  I sure wish there’d been a bonafide expert to examine that scene.

                • If I had to guess, I would say that one of the trails of blood was from Travis dripping blood and the other could have been from blood slipping off of the knife during the assault. I am not an expert, but I did hear about blood being planted there such as an odd pattern on the wall Journee.

                • The lines are SO straight though – like they’re dripping from something that has a very smooth motion. I dunno – like something on wheels? YES! THATS IT! Especially right at the threshold there by the bedroom, that dripping blood trail makes a perfect curve.

                  No bleeding person, no person carrying a dripping weapon, would make a line as perfect as those lines are.

                  And those lines weren’t left by coroner’s personnel carrying Travis out of there…. his body was in a bag.

                • Travis could have been running in rather straight form. I was referring to blood slinging off of the knife when stabbing, as if the blood was being thrown over someone’s shoulder. Perhaps the blood could have been planted there too.

      • There is a trail of streaming blood down the hallway consistent with blood pouring out of his sinuses. Jodi said that the shot took place in the middle of the bathroom. If the trail of blood doesn’t start exactly at the sink it could be because she went to the linen closet (door was opened) and handed him a towel. Or – he could have grabbed a towel himself and dropped it later while he pursued or attacked her. (It is possible that she headed back to the bedroom for a phone to call 911 and that he followed, but that she doesn’t remember it now.) There were several towels recovered in the wash that had been bloodied.

        Even if he had sprinted, that running blood would have continued to stream along the floor of the hallway.

  8. I have a request to make of SJ/admins –

    I don’t know whether this is possible or not, but I wonder if there’s a way to make it less cumbersome to navigate post archives.

    In support of Justus’ work on his wiki, I went looking for posts from last spring/early summer from a poster who’s no longer here, but who said she was diagnosed with BPD…. Heather1 was her name. And I recall someone -might have been Heather, but it seemed like the writing style may have been different- who’s diagnosis had crossed back and forth across BPD/PTSD – and seems like there were links to articles explaining the tie between the two.

    Anyway – I flip page by page through the calendar to get back to June of last year, find some posts of Heather’s but nothing about BPD, wanted to just click on another day in Jun’13, but the calendar on the page is Mar’14, so I’d have to flip back through all the pages again. Would it be possible to get the archives on a drop-down month-by-month? There was SO much information and wisdom shared in those few months, it would be so great if we could access it more easily!

    • Journee,

      outofthefog has a list of 100 of the most common behaviors of people who have personality disorders; BPD and PTSD share many of them in their (further) breakdowns. But they also direct readers to the DSM for the actual criteria.

      Re: BPD, outofthefog says that anyone might seem to “have BPD” at some point in their lives. (This is why Dr. Geffner warned against cherry-picking events from throughout a person’s entire life, of course.)

      What they say about C-PTSD (complex PTSD) is well worth reading with respect to this case, but since it isn’t in the DSM, wikipedia is also helpful.

    • Not at all, Maria. Thank you.

      Also, you recommended expanding on the name calling section. I am working on that. I do wish we had Jodi’s side of those text messages lest readers think he’s probably justified in what he’s saying (as if there is any excuse for talking to someone that way.)

      • Make sure to include the 5/26/2008 and the ”So either fess up or feel the wrath. No matter how bad the truth is I promise you the punishment will be better than the lie” rant. Direct threats to her life.

        • ”freaking whore,cheap whore, corrupted carcass, Hitler had more of a conscience than you, solid form of evil, Next dick, worthless words, he hates her, caused him more pain than his father, rotten lunatic, liar, Satan, 3 hole wonder, tips for BJ’s, Travis is just a dildo with a heartbeat, worthless, bitch, lies make you worthless, you take up air, laughing stock, you only care about Jodi, demented. ”

          I can re-watch ALV’s testimony if you want, I remember she read the character assassination phrases out, I don’t think the whole e-mail was shown as an exhibit. I for one don’t have a screenshot of it but I do have the ones that were shown on the projector.

          • I think those phrases you give are perfect! I will put a selection of them out as general phrases for now and if you wouldn’t mind watching ALV to make sure we get *exact* quotes that would be great. (Right now I have a couple of other irons in the fire.) Ultimately I will create links to whatever full emails and text messages we can find as references and proof.

          • I just saw trial testimony of JM asking EF why TA would call Jodi [the ‘wonder” term]. Of course, KN objected twice: “Speculation” – but JSS overruled. EF answered the question by saying that TA had told JA that [she’d treated him] like “a dildo with a heartbeat”.

            So in responding, EF was allowed to speculate about TA’s feelings, and in doing so, he “justified” the use of other rough language when TA delivered ANOTHER insult to Jodi that suggested she was only using HIM for sex.

            Ugh! The answer was non-responsive, IMO. It had to be, since it was only SPECULATION.

  9. I added a section under “Judicial Injustices” for our ol’ friend Flores. I don’t accuse him of perjury but do point out his “misunderstanding” with Horn was evidence used to make it into a death penalty case. Here is what I have and please correct me if my reasoning is wrong.

    Detective Flores

    — Det. Flores was allowed to testify in Horn’s behalf at the Cronis hearing, over the objections of the defense based on the fact that Flores was not qualified to speak for Horn.

    — Based on Flores’ testimony, the judge determined there were “aggravating circumstances” that could warrant the death penalty.

    — Now Flores wants to claim that it was all just a big misunderstanding???

    — And the State gets to continue on with the death penalty based on what they now claim is inaccurate information???

    • Correction to first item:

      — Det. Flores was allowed to testify on Horn’s behalf at the Cronis hearing (over the objections of the defense, based on the fact that Flores was not qualified to speak for Horn), stating that the gun shot was first and Travis’ may not have been immediately incapacitated.

  10. I still believe Jodi, with all my heart, that when she finally brought herself to admit to Flores, during her interrogation, that she WAS at Travis’s house on June 4, 2008, but that she did NOT kill Travis!

    Jodi went to Travis’ house by invitation from Travis, who asked her via cell phone, as she was on her way to see Ryan Burns, if she would swing by his house on June 4, 2008! She agreed and told him when she would probably arrive and that is why Travis was up waiting for Jodi.

    Jodi shows Flores how she was bent down in front of shower taking pics of Travis and when she looked up she saw two people standing behind her with their faces covered and then as she was knocked on the head she heard a gun shot before she passed out for a bit. When she came to, she said Travis was bleeding, but alive and holding his head, and she told him that they needed to get out of there and he told her that he couldn’t move. He told her to go get help!

    I believe that when Jodi testified in court that after the gunshot she doesn’t really remember anything & it was kind of like a fog, that she honestly doesn’t remember anything after the shot! I believe when Jodi said she came to, it was for a few seconds. She did see Travis bleeding and he did tell her to get help but I believe these true killer’s of Travis knocked Jodi back out again. I even believe that one of the killers drove Jodi (knocked out) in her rental car to the border and left her there. The other killer drove behind in another car That is where she came to and that’s why she said she didn’t remember how she got there. I believe they had Travis too and after they left Jodi, they took Travis to another location where they actually killed him and then they eventually brought Travis’s body back to his house and positioned his body in the shower. The killers then set up the crime scene, put bed clothes in wash, etc. and left.

    These killers are still out there somewhere. Jodi stuck with this confession for two years! Then, shortly after the news of Ashley Reed Thompson’s “SUPPOSED” suicide – not, is when Jodi changed her confession to self defense!

    SOMEONE/S is getting away with murder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (((((JODI))))) (((((FREE JODI))))) (((((TEAM JODI)))))

  11. Travis Alexander closet, what about photogrammetry. … I say photogrammetry because I watched (again) video Trial Day 52 – April 24, 2013, Part 1/2 (1hr) & 2/2 (28min). …And I feel that most of the entire 1hr & 28min was a total effort to run-out the clock-time of the trial with sidebars & prevent the Defense from asking closet-dimension questions. …Photogrammetry of closet pics can give us dimensions, whereas the detective was reluctant to admit to specifics. … … …
    … …I already gave several comments on this thread (Day 52) last week about how I thought Jodi could very easily JUMP, (propel herself up) on her LEFT FOOT without hardly putting any pressure (only 30 lbs) with her RIGHT FOOT on a shelf on the right side near the RIGHT vertical support frame. … … …
    … …Please google: ((((( travis alexander closet ))))). … I selected & expanded the pic of the closet to 350×270 (very clean pic & I can even see the bottom shelf (all the way on the bottom) on the floor. …It is about 4 inches high (above the floor) & that is a very reinforced shelf ((no pegs necessary)). …So, Jodi could have put her right foot there, & up to 100% of her weight on that shelf because IT IS REINFORCED. …She could even have put both feet on that shelf (4 inches above the floor & propelled herself up with BOTH FEET, & holding the top vertical support frame with one or the other hand & not be proven to be telling a lie. … …SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO PROVE EVERYTHING THAT SHE SAID, THAT SHE DID, BUT ONLY THAT NO PROSECUTOR CAN PROVE IT TO BE A LIE. … …
    … …The height of the bottom reinforced shelf would subtract 4 inches of total shelf height that she would have to propel herself upwards, using both hands and propelling herself up with one or both feet !! …Remember these shelf frames are surely screwed to the wall. …It is like doing a slam dunk basketball play in reverse, grab something not dunk something.
    … …Amigo detective said her weight was between 115 &125lbs. … … …Her drivers license says she is 5ft 6in, 125lbs (let’s go with 120lbs cause that is what detective said. …Video/audio says there were no empty containers on top of shelves so that means that the gun was FLAT ON THE SHELF !!! Extremely easy to touch it with her long fingers & slide it off the shelf, even if on the very tippy top shelf. …
    … …Now, a .25 caliber semi-auto with a clip is about 5in x 4inches. … …So, if a gun was even as high as the very tippy top, all the way in back to the wall, that is 4 or 5 inches (the size of the gun) LESS, that Jodi would have to propel herself up to touch the gun with her long fingers & slide it to her !!! … … … … … … …Remember, subtract 4in for bottom shelf & another 4 or 5 inches for flat size area of gun. … …

    … …!!! NOW !!! …What else did I observe in that video Day 52, 4/24/2013, Part 2/2 ?? …I heard judge read jury question to detective: WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE APPROXIMATE WIDTH OF THE END SHELF UNIT WHERE Ms ARIAS CLAIMS THE GUN WAS LOCATED ??? …See: Video 2/2 above, at specific point, 22:25 of about 29 min. … …Now, please view/listen & hear him say that the width of that shelf (in jury question) was 36 to 38 inches long (he means the width) & 16 inches deep & the shelves were 3/4 inch thick. … ….((((My shelves that I bought many years ago are supported by medium gauge wire that slides along a cut in my shelves so that my shelves have *only half * of 3/4 inch shelf support. … …So, Travis’s shelves are much more heavy duty than regular Home Depot shelves that I have. … … … …Travis’s shelves have a full 3/4 inch of solid wood on top of round pegs. … …I say that the point on top of any shelf just above the round peg can support ((much of )) Jodi’s entire 120 lb weight, if she is jumping up from the floor or up from the reinforced shelf. … … … …So, the prosecution did not prove that she lied & I say it is extremely possible to retrieve that gun exactly as she described. … …I say the PROSECUTION SNOOKERED THE COURT ONCE AGAIN. …JODI DID NOT LIE, …IMHO. … … … … … …

    … …The .25 caliber semi-auto handgun Model 1908 was created by famed firearms designer John Moses Browning, (A MORMON) & member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. … …So was his father, Johnathan Browning also a Mormon & firearms inventor & who was introduced into the Mormon Church by Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith. … …I guess he knew Mormons would need guns.
    … …Google: (((( john moses browning .25 caliber model 1908 )))). .WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT?? … … …Because: It is important for Mormon men to own at least ONE .25 caliber Model 1908 semi-auto pocket handgun. …(IMHO)… because it is a tribute & honor to their ancestors who were a long line of MORMON gun industrialists. … …It is like a silver crucifix handed down to a Catholic family or a Jewish Menorah handed down from Jewish ancestors. ….IMHO….

    … …Now, let’s use PHOTOGRAMMETRY and see if that 36-38in wide shelf & 16 in deep is the ???truth??? … as the detective said on the stand !!! … …It may be, but I ask the entire world viewing this blog site to make a judgement. … … …Let’s look at the shelves: from the left , the shelf can only contain ( fit ) 3 pair of men’s shoes, side by side, close together. … …The inside shelf only can fit 2 pair of men’s shoes, close spaced. … …Does the jury (& the judge) understand that if they (the jury) had time to examine this picture, they could determine THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE !!! … THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE !!! … … … … … …A 38 inch shelf with only 3pair of men’s dress shoes, close spaced, would mean that Travis’ dress shoes were: …38inches divided by 6 shoes = = = 6.3 inches in width for each of his shoes. … … …I ask the readers of this blog to comment: …Do you-all know of any human being in the world who wears a dress shoe that is 6,3 inches in width or even 6 inches in width ??? Especially for a relatively short man of only 5ft 8in height, & only 180 lbs ??? … …

    … …WELL, WELL, WELL, DID THE DETECTIVE MISSPEAK AGAIN ON THE STAND ??? …Will the judge again say ….whatever ??? … I say that the shelves are not 38in nor 36in but standard 30 in wide which would fit 3 pair of men’s shoes just as snuggly as they appear in the pictures. …IMHO… …And the middle shelf is a standard 24 inches wide holding just 2 pair or shoes snuggly. …. … … … … … … … … …
    … …And, I suggest that the shelves were not 16 inches in depth but only 12 inches in depth, because absolutely all the shoes were tippy toe to the front of the shelves, not one pair was recessed. … …Most men’s shoes are 12 inches in length. …I say these shelves were standard 12 inches in depth, no deeper than that. … … ……………..

    … …Furthermore, did the TV network programmers make mock-up shelves to the 36-38 inch & 16 inch depth ?? … …That means that if the dimensions are so wrong, then the jury had totally wrong information, heavily weighted to favor the prosecution to SNOOKER THE JURY into believing that Jodi told a lie. …IMHO. … … … …And I suggest that the jury bootstrapped everything that Jodi said & used FALSE CIRCULAR REASONING, & FALSELY convicted her of M-1 premeditation because I heard it many, many, many, times that Jodi lies about everything…. … …I say that the prosecution DID NOT PROVE that Jodi told a lie of any kind in court. …Everything she said ((((((((((IN COURT)))))))))) can be shown that it is absolutely possible to be the truth, even with the grammar school arithmetic snookery of the prosecution. …IMHO… … …I believe she was in the FUGUE state and probably is still in some sort of FUGUE nightmare. … …St Joan of Arc is her Guardian Angel. …Please observe my other comments here & through: … … … … May want to put www dot in front ……

    • WOW WLopez you have done a wonderful job explaining the whole closet scene but as we all know the wrong verdict has already been reached in this trial and this info will never make it to this courtroom. Please send you information to Jodi’s attorney and maybe they can use it for later. Hopefully, it will help with the appeal. Yes the Prosecution got it all wrong and was defiantly guilty of snookering the jury and the defense. I can see that you are like all of us always looking for anything that can help Jodi and you are doing a great job. . . keep it up!!

    • WLOP, you really “drilled down” – to use a term that is often used these days – on this shelving stuff. Good observations, and great questions about dimensions! If they are as thick as 3/4″, that is indeed thick, and if they are also only 30″ wide, they would be very strong.

      Are any of the posters here familiar with shelves like these? If they’ve seen this type of shelving or know people who have them, how deep are the shelves? As you pointed out, the more shallow, the easier it could have been for Jodi to have reached the gun.

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